庄周梦蝶

刘芳，好久没见你了，谢谢你今天来看我。这次病，我病了很长时间，现在才刚刚恢复。

Liu Fang, it's been a long time since I've seen you. Thanks for coming to see me today. I was sick for a very long time this time, and I've only just recovered.

应该的。你现在感觉怎么样？身体好些了吗？

Of course. How are you feeling now? Is your body doing better?

身体是好多了，但是有一种奇怪的感觉，我说不太清楚。生病的那段时间，我好像做了很多梦，醒来的时候，有那么一两秒，我不知道自己是谁，也不知道自己是不是原来那个我。

Physically I'm much better, but there's a strange feeling I can't quite put into words. During my illness I seem to have had a lot of dreams, and when I woke up, for a second or two, I didn't know who I was, and I didn't know whether I was still the same me as before.

我小时候，也听过一个有点像的故事，是我妈妈跟我讲的：一个小女孩梦见自己变成了家里的猫，醒了以后就问，到底是猫做梦变成了她，还是她做梦变成了猫。那时候我觉得，这只是一个讲给小孩子听的故事。

When I was little, I also heard a story a bit like that, my mom told it to me: a little girl dreamed she'd turned into the family cat, and when she woke up she asked whether it was the cat dreaming it had turned into her, or her dreaming she'd turned into the cat. Back then I thought it was just a story for kids.

对，这样的故事我好像也听过，是小时候的事了，具体的内容都忘了。真正的、给大人看的那个故事，是什么样的？

Right, I feel like I've heard a story like that too, back when I was a kid. I've forgotten the details. What's the real version, the one meant for adults?

真正的故事出自庄子，一位两千多年前的思想家。他说自己做了一个梦，梦见自己变成了一只蝴蝶，飞来飞去，非常开心，完全不知道自己本来是庄周。

The real story comes from Zhuangzi, a thinker from over two thousand years ago. He said he had a dream in which he turned into a butterfly, flying here and there, completely happy, with no idea at all that he was originally Zhuang Zhou.

完全不知道自己是庄周？那他梦里的那个自己，一点都不觉得奇怪吗？

He had no idea at all that he was Zhuang Zhou? Didn't the self in his dream find anything strange about that?

不觉得。他自己后来写道，那时候的他只知道自己是一只蝴蝶，心里很高兴，完全不知道还有一个庄周存在。后来他突然醒了，清清楚楚地知道自己就是庄周，一点也不怀疑。

No, he didn't. He wrote later that at the time he only knew he was a butterfly, felt completely happy, and had no idea there was even a Zhuang Zhou to exist. Then he suddenly woke up, and knew clearly and certainly that he was Zhuang Zhou, without a shred of doubt.

那问题在哪儿？他醒了，知道自己是庄周，这不是很清楚吗？

So where's the problem? He woke up and knew he was Zhuang Zhou, isn't that pretty clear?

问题是接下来那一句。庄子问自己：究竟是庄周做梦，梦见自己变成了蝴蝶，还是蝴蝶做梦，梦见自己变成了庄周？他自己也说不清楚，到底哪一个才是真的自己。

The problem is the sentence that comes next. Zhuangzi asked himself: was it really Zhuang Zhou dreaming he'd turned into a butterfly, or was it a butterfly dreaming it had turned into Zhuang Zhou? He himself couldn't say for certain which one was truly the real self.

这不只是一个比喻，这跟我生病时候的感觉有点像。我醒着的时候，当然知道自己是张伟，可是一想起生病那段时间的自己，又觉得那个人跟现在的我，好像不完全是同一个人。

This isn't just a metaphor, it's a bit like the feeling I had while I was sick. When I'm awake, of course I know I'm Zhang Wei, but when I think back to who I was during my illness, I feel like that person and the me right now aren't quite entirely the same person.

庄子把这种没办法分辨的状态，叫做「物化」，意思是事物之间的界限没有那么清楚，一个东西可以变成另一个东西，我和蝴蝶之间，也不是完全分开的两件事。

Zhuangzi called this state where things can't be told apart "the transformation of things", meaning the boundary between one thing and another isn't as clear as it seems, one thing can become another thing, and "me" and "a butterfly" aren't two completely separate things either.

物化……这个词我以前没听过，但是我好像懂它的意思。我现在跟二十岁的张伟，是不是也不完全是同一个人？那时候的我，想的、要的，都跟现在很不一样。

The transformation of things... I've never heard that word before, but I think I understand what it means. Am I really the same person right now as the Zhang Wei who was twenty? What that me thought and wanted was really different from now.

可是你身体里的记忆，从二十岁到现在，一直是连着的，没有断过，这跟庄周醒来以后还记得自己做的蝴蝶梦，是不是也一样？记忆没断，是不是就还是同一个人？

But the memory inside you, from twenty until now, has been continuous the whole way, it's never been broken. Isn't that a bit like Zhuang Zhou, after he woke up, still remembering the butterfly dream he'd had? If the memory isn't broken, doesn't that mean it's still the same person?

记忆没断，这个我同意，但是「记得那个人」，跟「就是那个人」，好像不完全一样。我记得二十岁的自己想做的工作，可是记忆里的那份自信，我现在已经找不到了，好像真的不是同一个人在想事情。

I agree the memory isn't broken, but "remembering that person" and "being that person" don't seem quite the same to me. I remember the job the twenty-year-old me wanted, but I can't find that confidence from the memory anymore, it really feels like it's not the same person doing the thinking.

可是要是没有记忆把这些连起来，你根本不会觉得现在的自己少了什么，也不会拿现在的自己去跟二十岁的自己比。正因为你还记得，你才会说「好像不是同一个人」，这句话本身，就已经说明有一个连着的你，在做这个比较。

But if there weren't a memory connecting all of this, you wouldn't feel like the current you was missing anything at all, and you wouldn't compare the current you to the twenty-year-old you either. It's precisely because you still remember that you can say "it feels like a different person", and that sentence itself already shows there's a continuous you doing the comparing.

这个我说不过你，但是我还是觉得，「记得」和「是」，是两件不一样的事情。庄周醒了以后，也记得自己做了蝴蝶的梦，可是他还是不敢说，自己一定不是蝴蝶做的梦。记忆解决不了这个问题，对吧？

I can't out-argue you on that, but I still think "remembering" and "being" are two different things. After Zhuang Zhou woke up, he still remembered the butterfly dream, but he still didn't dare say for certain that he wasn't a butterfly's dream. Memory doesn't solve that problem, does it?

也许真的解决不了。两千多年了，还是没有人能说清楚，物化的时候，到底谁是真的，谁是梦。不过我们还是可以借鉴庄子的态度，不用非要马上想清楚。

Maybe it really can't be solved. Over two thousand years, and still no one can say clearly, at the moment of the transformation, which one is real and which one is the dream. But we can still draw on Zhuangzi's attitude about it, without needing to figure it out right away.

至少现在，我确定我们俩都醒着。你说得对，还是我说得对，先不管了，你陪我在这儿坐着，我已经很高兴了。

At least right now, I'm sure the two of us are both awake. Whether you're right or I'm right, let's not worry about that for now. Just having you sit here with me already makes me happy.

好，那我们就先不当庄周，也不当蝴蝶，就当两个坐在这儿说话的老朋友吧。

Okay, then let's not be Zhuang Zhou or a butterfly for now. Let's just be two old friends sitting here talking.